hi-

i have an older (10 years?) spa that i'm looking to replace the spa pack in. the spa model is an emerald cygnus c-5000-4.

i'm interested in replacing the existing air button system with a digital system, and have been looking at models from both acc and balboa, but would like to get some more insight before purchasing.

the spa is 240v, has a single 2 speed pump for the jets and a single smaller 1 speed pump for circulation/filtration/heating. it also has a blower built into the spa pack. a few pictures are available here: http://www.bitrate.net/spa/

the spa is plumbed in such a way that the circulation system is completely separate from the jet system.

for the circulation side, there is a skimmer that feeds directly into the filters, then on to the input side of the circulation pump. the circulation pump pumps directly into the heater, which then feeds to a single outlet in the foot well.

for the jet side, there are 3 suction intakes in the foot well, which feed to the input side of the jet pump. the jet pump pumps through a diverter valve to balance output between the two halves of the spa, and then onto to various jets.

i'm wondering what my options might be if i'm willing to be a bit creative. i'd prefer to avoid a big replumbing job, but i don't mind doing a little bit if it would give me more options.

from what i've read and the conversations i've had, the norm seems to be that if you have a circulation pump connected most systems will "automatically" use this pump for the filtration/heating cycles. are there exceptions to that rule? i've also heard that in scenarios like this, spa packs such as the balboa vs501 can be problematic because the m7 sensors end up being unhappy.

if that is the case, could the circulation pump be separated from the aspect of heating and be left to simply run water through only the filter, while the jet pump was used to run water through the heater? could the system be told to use the jet pump's low speed for the heating cycles while also running the circulation pump? alternatively, could the lines to and from the filter be somehow tied into the jet lines so when the jet pump was running it would push water through the filters as well as it's normal behavior?

currently, the system doesn't take advantage of the jet pump's low speed at all. there is a single air switch for the jets, and if they are on, they are on high. if the system is using a circulation pump for the filter/heat cycles, do replacement spa packs typically allow a 2 speed jet pump to be operated on demand at both speeds, or is the low speed reserved for systems that have a single pump and use it for filter/heat cycles as well as jets?

i have many other questions floating around in my head, but since this is already getting to be a bit long, i'll leave it at that for now.

thanks!

I'd never recommend the headache of considering ANY replumbing options on a spa with a separate circulation pump like this unless you're ready to spend more money and do a lot more un-necessary work. There's not a lot of these older emerald spas left like this.

You've got two options basically.

1. Replace the heater, they are available. You've talked to Jen about this previously and this is still my primary recommendation. That old controller, while it seems old, is fully serviceable, everything inside can be replaced and it will continue to serve you well for years. Just standard relays, contactors and air switches. That control box is one of the few of this age that has not sustained damage from corrosion. This is an Emerald Spas original - and it should work quite reliably.

2. Replace the circulation pump (or wet end and reuse the circ pump motor) and controller with a Balboa VS501 system that'll handle a stand alone circulation pump that pumps that amount of water that yours will.

The issues that you're faced with on this thing, is that whatever you get besides a digital system that can handle it, is isolating the circ pump circuit from the jet pump circuit, and having the thermostat control it by itself. Most controllers off the shelf won't do this.

Our standard work around for circ pump systems (of the MINI circ pump variety - yours is full size, not a mini) is with the ACC systems where the circ pump is designed to work 24/7.

For yours though, you really need the Balboa system that'll actually turn it off and on accordingly.

Balboa M7's only have a problem with circ pumps that are on the low end of the scale as far as GPM rates.

But - the thing is, once you remove your control box, you also lose the mount for your circ pump requiring you to move/change how it's plumbed etc, requiring a replacement full size circ pump, or changing it to a full sized circ pump wet end with normal plumbing - (you can't mount your circ pump on the side of a newer controller, you'll have to mount it on it's feet - unless you're into backyard engineering something to make it work in it's current configuration).

We'd love to sell you all the parts you need however - considering the condition of your box, and the availability of the replacement parts, and the amount of work required, in my opinion, you're better off keeping what you have by replacing the heater and at least getting started enjoying the spa right away - (hopefully not much else will be required).

If you're into the 'we will build it and we will have fun' thing, and can do most of the rigging required to make a new system work for this on your own, then by all means go for it.

Just be prepared for the idiot stuff.

This is a really nice tub you've got, and it looks like it's in pretty awesome condition. If it were mine, I'd fix it on the spot and be using it the next day. I can always decide to spend big bucks and invest a lot of labor later on if necessary.

You may want to call these folks http://www.emeraldspa.com/
Direct replacement parts may be pricey, but I've always enjoyed their unique design - especially the filter system. (Unfortunately those filter cannister replacements are not cheap - but it's darned good system though).

Otherwise call us back and we'll do the best we can for you.

thanks for the details and insight

the heater was what i mentioned to jen, and is definitely in need of replacement, but there is actually a bit more history to where i'm at today that might help give things some context.

originally, when we became the owners of this tub (as part of the purchase of our home), it was functioning, but in pretty bad shape, from a mechanical and electrical perspective. the spa pack was severely corroded inside and out, and the circ pump and jet pump had shaft seals that had failed. i found this out in the process of replacing the heater when it died shortly after we moved in.

since, as you mention, the tub itself seemed to be in great shape, i decided to invest a bit in bringing things back to life, and completely removed all of the electronics and mechanicals from the cabinet, as well as the rotted floor of the cabinet, and spent a fair amount of money reconditioning everything (all of the pictures are post-reconditioning, so it's tough to get a sense of how things started out):

• installed new floor and insulation in cabinet.
• stripped spa pack enclosure of rust/corrosion and sealed w/ corrosion.
• resistant paint (liquid plastic).
• cleaned up all rotted/corroded wiring in spa pack.
• rebuilt circ pump.
• replaced jet pump w/ reconditioned/rebuilt unit.
• replaced all gate valves in plumbing.

and of course replaced the heater.

only because of putting all of this work into the spa have we been able to extend the life of the existing spa pack by the 2 years we've managed to add.

even though we've been able to use the tub during that period, the system has been touchy and temperamental. the filter cycle no longer honors the auto function and runs 24 hours a day, regardless of the switch position on the spa pack. this in and of itself isn't really a big deal - i know there are plenty of tubs that do this by design - but it's indicative of other things being problematic. the high limit switch occasionally trips - i haven't been able to determine quite why - it doesn't seem to happen consistently. the thermostat is difficult to adjust and has a large amount of play with regard to making those adjustments. it's also frustrating to have to return to the tub to check the thermometer to see if where we set the thermostat is actually the temp we want the tub at.

so - all of that being said, we've decided that it's time to let the old spa pack rest in peace, and get on with things without the headaches and frustration of nursing along a unit.

so - the questions:

you mention, as the 2nd option, replacing/modifying the circ pump and using a balboa system. is this because of the way in which it's currently mounted?

losing the mount for the circ pump isn't too big of a deal. coming up with a new mount is something i can do without too much trouble. although - i actually like your idea of just replacing the wet end with a different style that will let me plumb more directly from the pump output into the heater. that seems like it kills two birds with one stone by letting me mount the pump directly to the floor and help maintain higher flow rate through the heater.

so, just to confirm - if i'm following you correctly, having a circ pump that's a larger pump (as in my case) should allow me to use a balboa and not suffer from problems where there's not enough water moving through the heater?

i share your approach toward getting it up and running and not investing more money unless it's really needed - that's been my philosophy for the last couple years we've been using the tub, but i'm pretty confident we've reached that point now. i think given the state it was in, with the exception of purchasing a new jet pump (which i was fortunate to find locally for a great price) we've put a minimal amount of money into things and have been able to enjoy the tub for a good 2 years more than we otherwise would have been able to, but i think the time has come to regroup and get a fresh start.

i know i've got my work cut out for me, but hopefully with a little more insight from you guys i can make the right choice and get us back in shape before the winter really takes hold (it's cold in michigan! ). i had a good time doing the previous work too and learned a lot, so i don't have an aversion to getting my hands dirty and covered with pvc primer - especially if the payoff is a nice, new, healthy system