I have an 8 year old Hawkeye Spa, with Balboa controller... The other day we had a brownout here and I went out to find my spa not working. I come to find the exterior power disconnect box and the ends of the wiring were completely melted. In talking to some electricians, they say the box that was there is not to code and should be a spa panel with GFI. There is already a dual pole 50A breaker at the box. Is there any issue in mounting a inline spa panel with GFI breaker downstream of another breaker? of should I just buy a 50A GFI breaker for the panel and install another plain disconnect box at the spa.

Personally, I would buy a GFI breaker for the main panel and use a regular disconnect at the remote location. That is, however, as long as your neutral and ground are separate (they should be) as the GFI in the main panel will need to have the neutral leaving it to be unbonded. That way the wiring going to the remote location is also protected. Putting a GFI only at the remote location could still result in death since the incomming line to it will be unprotected.

That's a little overdramatic, isn't it?

I mean, every other 220v breaker in the house could result in death too, I suppose....Stove, A/C, water heater, heater, pool equip, etc,...all 220v and no GFCI.

Bottom line, for ALL electrical runs, safety is entirely dependant on a good "ground" regardless of having a GFCI. Unhook a ground on a GFCI breaker, and you'll get shocked in the event of a current leakage failure. Unhook a ground on a non GFCI run, same thing. Good grounds, no shock.

There's nothing wrong or unsafe in putting a 50 amp breaker in the house, non GFCI, and putting the 50 AMP GFCI breaker in a subpanel outside. It will make future service calls much easier to schedule if the homewoner is unable to be home during the service call, and is no more safe or unsafe than having a GFCI anywhere else. There is no NEC requiring GFCI for the entire length of the run.

Additionally, I've seen many problems caused by faulty "disconnects" Buring and melted wires, disconeectrs that are so hard to push in, homewners aren't aware of the consequences of not fully pushing them in, months later, a fire hazarad is brewing on the side of their home...

Just food for thought

I would say definentally not. Anytime you have an outdoor run, you should, for safety's sake, have it protected as best as you can. It does a person no good to have only half of a live circuit outside protected by a GFI. Let's assume, for example, that the hot tub sprung a leak, and the owner went to hit the disconnect to shut it off. Now, let's also say it had rained the night before, and the moment he hits the disconnect, some of that rain water made it into the switch... do you think that the GFI is going to do him any good if the line is unprotected? What I am suggesting is it's better to be safe than sorry. You are dealing with an outdoor installation and last time I checked, rain is a water hazard that I personally would rather not risk.

Yes a good ground will HELP protect you from a shock, but it will not PREVENT you from getting a shock. A GFI WILL prevent you from getting the shock of your life, regardless of how well the equipment is grounded. I see shocks all the time in my field, and the equipment is VERY WELL GROUNDED. All it takes each and every time is a just little water.

Swine, you are dwelling on the 240V INSIDE the home that isn't subjected to constant water. No comparison there. RELAX!

That's false.

If it were true, we would be in agreement.. but it simply isn't... You will get the shock of your life with a GFCI if it isn't grounded properly.

How many GFCI's do you see in outdoor electrical runs?

ZERO, because there is no requirement for it, because it has virtually no impact on safety...

GFCI's will not trip if the item in question is not grounded properly. A proper ground is vital to safety.

You can try this theory next time you come accross a tub tripping a GFCI. Don't blame me when you get bit!


Seriously, a GFCI WILL NOT trip if the ground is no good, I wouldn't want you to really try this!!!

Consider how many A/C units are outside of homes. How many use GFCI breakers to supply the dangerous, life threatening A/C subpanel?

Consider swimming pool equip subpanels that are located outside? How many require GFCI's to suply the subpanel?

Anyway, didn't want to start an argument, but it is worth noting that a GFCI isn't a safety device if it's not grounded. A good ground is paramount, with or without a GFCI

Well, to put it lightly, if you had included your email address in your profile, I wouldn't have to waste this precious forum space dealing with you. But, since you want to go, here it is:

I see you claim to be an engineer, but of what, no one knows. Clearly it isn't electricity, since you would know that a GFI does NOT need to be grounded to operate. In fact, using a GFI is the only recourse you have if you encounter a recepticle that is fed by only a hot and a neutral, with no path to ground, without rewiring the entire branch. If simple grounding was adequate, there would have never been a need for GFI's.

Regarding outdoor A/C units, the NEC does not require them to be GFI'd since there are no receptacles that are readily accessable on the CA unit.

Based on your claim, GFI's are not necessary in any situation since a properly grounded outlet will be adequate protection from shock arising from an alternate current path caused by water. That would mean that the whole GFI humdrum is a big fraud, and even the National Electric Code is in on it.



That is incorrect. It has a HUGE impact on safety. The reason you don't see it on a lot of outdoor runs is that for the most part, outdoor runs are inaccessable. Any outdoor outlet (for example) is required by code to be GFI'd UNLESS they are not readily accessable or for de-icing equipment.



Consider this... How many GFI breakers have you ever seen with a GND, green, or Ground pigtail? I haven't seen a single one. They do NOT need to be grounded to operate! Your neutral wire is your return path on a 120V circuit, and the L1 and L2 alternate this return path on a 240V circuit. The only purpose of the ground is to form another path to the source, should the dedicated return fail. The GFI is there in case both fail. It is a redundant SAFETY device. Although a lot of your advice is sound and on target, I am going to ask that when it comes to electrical troubleshooting and advice, you might want to bone up on your knowledge of the equipment and consult with the NEC guidebook before making claims that are not founded on facts.

END OF DISCUSSION

Wow, personal attacks and misinformation, all wrapped up in one nice post

I'm truly concerned that you beleive a GFCI doesn't need a ground in order to be effective. This is perhaps the most irresponsible, and more importantly, dangerous things I've read.

Please don't talk down to others, it is impolite, and not neccesary, and tends to have the oppsite of the deisired effect.

Perhaps it is simply sematics? Maybe we aren't communicating properly?

I might have confused you when I said the GFCI needs to be grounded, when, in fact, the equip needs to be grounded. I apologize. My meaning is that the eqiup that the GFCI supplies MUST be grounded.

Perhaps an extremely simple example will do?
Hook up a 220v GFCI breaker to an ungrounded heater. If the heater develops current leakage, the breaker will not trip, unless the FLA draw exceeds that of the breaker.

If you think you're "safe" because you have a GFCI breaker, you aren't.
That's all I'm trying to say.

I certainly am not trying to step on any toes around here, but when I've interpreted something as irresponible as this, I feel it would be irresponsible to say nothing.

Thanks,

Ben Wolters

President

Sensible Spa Solutions


PS- Send me a PM if you would like to discuss...