Hi Jeanette! Hopefully I can offer some suggestions, as I'm so glad our spa journey is over! Wow, can that keep you busy. We kept flitting back and forth between manufacturers and spa features, because they all offer their own "unique" options so that they can call them unique. It's not really comparing apples to apples, unfortunately, which would be so much easier. Being so far from a dealer, though, be sure to find out how service is performed, including trip fees if any, etc, and how long it will take to get someone out to you. Also, find out if there will be an initial delivery fee since you're so far out.

Also, beware as you're reading reviews because when you make such a large purchase, you really want to justify that it was money well-spent! So, honestly, all of us with opinions--even though they are true--may be a little biased toward what we chose. At the same time, we (unless you're a dealer) have nothing to gain from sharing our opinions.

OK, we decided on the Arctic Frontier, Signature Package, with the black Microban shell, natural cedar cabinet, 72" 2-tier steps, Sand-colored cover, exotic jet package, BaquaSpa kit (chemical-free products), and Deluxe Northern Lights. I didn't worry about this because I knew they were included, but I think the Forever Floor is standard (I've read this on a couple sellers' websites) and I think it's the same for the TruGuard Heater and the Polar Cover Upgrade. All the features are listed on the invoice with price amounts, and honestly, I think one-third of them are either shipped standard or assumed as part of the purchase, but they list them because it looks like you're getting more of a savings. I don't like this, but I noticed most of the companies seemed to do this. We skipped the ozone options, because they don't seem very useful. We also skipped the packages with the air (although I like how the tubs look with all those additional black jets!), as even our dealer felt it was sort of a waste of money. I've read reviews to that effect as well. The CD player seemed ridiculously high ($2000-2500!), although the way it's set to work seems really cool (AquaTremor, so you feel the music through the waves).

The pricing seemed similar to the high-end spas, although we had disregarded the Sundance, D1, Hot Spring, and a couple others based on price, because we *thought* we were going with the Bullfrog 451, and were just doing sort of an obligatory look at the competition to make ourselves feel better about the Bullfrog. Once we opened our eyes to the competition, we re-evaluated what we were getting for the price. That was actually more towards the end, prior to the Arctic. What sold us on the Arctic was really the spa configuration. At the time, we loved the dual lounger (new for 2005), because we knew we wanted a lounger and everyone else (in our price range) we saw only offered a single lounger. The Arctic allowed for two people to comfortably lay in about the same space, so four people can very, very comfortably be in there at once. The dual lounger will probably host a "couple", we figure, so it's okay that they touch (and they will). More on the dual lounger later. So, regarding the price, they are considered one of the higher-end spas and you do get what you pay for. I don't feel it was overpriced for what we got, although it was more than we planned on spending. Our dealer's papers show the base Frontier Signature package as $8500, but spas and accessories, etc., are negotiable, and you should hopefully be able to get everything, including tax, for at least $1000 less. I would work towards something like that anyway.

It is so attractive. When we first started looking, we were really turned off of the "maintenance-free" cabinets for all but a couple companies (can't remember which ones), which had ones that looked nearly identical to wood. It was so easy to re-stain this Arctic (like I said, I got to watch them do it). That's the good thing about cedar: it's a high quality wood, resistant to bugs, and a restraining can bring a very dull finish (if you didn't maintain it) right back to new. Plus, we can build our accessories in the backyard with the same wood and have it all match together nicely. The plastics used in the other cabinets are still susceptible to sunlight fading and discoloration over time, which warranties likely won't cover because that's considered regular wear and tear. I don't like the fading in even the new composite Terex decking I've seen, and I thought I'd originally love that.

Some other things I really like about my Arctic:
- The small jets are $12 and the large jets are $15 to replace. This means that at any time we can replace any single jet with exactly the force/direction/motion jet that we like anywhere in the tub.
- The areas where new jets can be installed in the tub are already in place, so we know exactly what can go where (big vs. small jet openings). They will come out and install them at any time and work out a deal according to how many additions you want. Plus, these slight "indents" help with more to hold onto while you're soaking.
- I absolutely love the waterfall. It flows evenly over the filter area and is illuminated by a light. It sounds awesome and is placed well.
- You can have the light on without any pump running, so it's completely silent. Several companies couldn't do that, including Bullfrog, and my husband likes to just sit there in silence.
- There is an empty circuit since we didn't get the Therapy Air jets, and you can buy a harness from them directly ($15, haven't gotten ours yet, wonder if Home Depot has it) to hook up anything--extra outdoor lighting, a second control panel that could be mounted inside the house, possibly a stereo setup, etc.
- Every jet can be easily adjusted for water power (almost a little too easy), and many of them can be rotated 360°. They pop in and out very easily as well, once you know how to do it.
- There's a 3-hook towel/robe holder attached to the frame of the cover lifter (this may be standard for other spas, not sure).

What I don't like about my Arctic:
- The dual lounger, sort of--we actually really like this, but to further explain: it's not as exciting as we were thinking. For instance, one lounger I love, mostly because I'm short (5'2") and it's a more comfortable position for me. We haven't had any tall people over yet, though, and I'm anxious to find out if they like the other lounger better. I noticed this with other loungers, too, so it's not just the Arctic. Most of the tubs we sat in were for taller people (like maybe 5'8"is). (This is one area that the Bullfrog might have been better, at least model 451, because it was so small. In the end, though, we felt it would be fine for 2 people, but when you're paying for a "4-5 person" spa (so they say), fitting only two comfortably would be a huge waste of money.) We will probably change out a few of the Arctic jets eventually, and I know this will add to the effectiveness for us (we're both shorter). I wish there was an area to hold onto within the tub like the other seats have. Not a big deal, but it would be nice.
- I wish there were more flat, protected surfaces. We'll be building an area around the spa eventually. We don't care, but there's no room for extra-large-based cups, just mostly cans or bottles.

What to get for sure with your spa:
- Cover lifter. This is mandatory in my opinion.
- A cool-down seat. Ours has two, and we're already loving this. Some spa companies said to just sit on the shell top, which you can do, too, but when it's even 50° out (let alone freezing), I don't want to get out of the tub THAT much just to cool down for a few minutes.
- Consider the Microbar finish (usually a price upgrade) in whatever you choose. We thought we only wanted the lighter, satiny finishes because the lights would look cooler, but I read a lot and talked to dealers about them, and it sounds like they're much harder to clean. Plus, you do need to worry about jewelry more than the textured finishes.
- Make sure there's a really thick, tapered cover and try for a bottom base that's anything but wood.

We've only had the tub a week, and it will take time to get used to. It's also our very first spa. Let me know if this is helpful. Sorry for this turning out ridiculously long (or if you're reading this for the Bullfrog, which I can also comment on!) ) so I'll wait and see what you think or if there's more questions. By the way, the Arctic DVD is very cheesy, although it does show some good pictures from the factory and has lots of features discussed. The Bullfrog DVD was cheesy, too--maybe it's an industry thing!--and focused too much on the JetPaks (of course, that's their main selling point). Those are the only two DVDs we received from companies we visited.

Best of luck in your search in the meantime!

JenJen, thank you so much for all the great information, you answered several of my questions. I know the only way I'll know which spa is for me is to get out and wet test several spa's but at least I'll be armed with lots of information before I walk into the store's.

I'm so glad you mentioned the cedar cabinet, I was thinking "maintenance -free" was the way to go but will definitely give the cedar a good look now.

I would like to know how pleased you are with the overall therapy, I have a bad back among other things.

Thanks again for all your help and please give an update soon on how your enjoying your new spa!!

Jeanette

JenJen, I mistakenly replied to your post while my DH was logged into the forum, sorry! I can be very absent minded especially with computer stuff.

Jeanette

Here is a concern I have with the bullfrog line of spas and maybe Mark can address it. I have read a few reviews by owners of a bullfrog spa that have complained about smell and growth occuring behind the jetpacks. I'd like an honest response about this since it is definitely a concern. My suspicion is that these owners just aren't too careful about there chemicals but I can see how such a problem could arise. Thanks

Sorry, I didn't answer sooner. In the 2 years we have sold Bullfrog, we have NEVER had any one complaint about anything wrong behind the Jetpaks. And we are one of Bullfrogs largest dealers.(triple digits). With the Jetpaks, there is a jet in the back of the pak to circulate the water. I am not sure when the Bullfrogs were first sold if they always had this feature. Also, starting in Nov. the new 2006 models will have a circulation pump that moves 8 times the amount of water than the standard circ pump. The circ pump will move water behind the Jetpaks so there will be no doubt about stale water. Sometimes you have to do things even when it is not needed.

Another thought: Alot of times on these forums you will have dealers of different brands "bashing" other brands posing as a customer. Even in our town, when a customer is hot tub shopping, if they say that they are looking at a Bullfrog; the salesman will say many things.

A new one I heard is that if you move the Jetpak it will void the warranty! I had to laugh.

Jeanette...so sorry for the delay! I ran into some computer problems and then couldn't get signed into the forums on the one system that was working.

Regarding the therapy from the jets, I've been pleased so far. What I'm finding is that we will be trading out a few of the jets for some different ones. Arctic allows each individual jet to be replaced ($12 for small, $15 for large), and there's maybe three different types (in both sizes). I have two favorites (straight, directional jets and a wave type that's like a massage hand, I guess), and they both address major shoulder and back problems I have. The other kind seems to have its power behind more of a plate, and I don't like it quite as much. Luckily, there's only a few of them, and only a couple jets I'd really like to replace anyway. It's super easy to remove/replace and we'll keep the old ones as backups or for guests who prefer a little less power.

I found one other "mandatory" thing to get for a spa: a display that faces you while you're sitting in the tub. And not one that can just be reversed to read from both directions, but rather one that is angled so you can see everything clearly while you're sitting back in the seats. I wouldn't have thought this to be a big deal, but we look at ours constantly. We never turn it on or do anything with it before getting into the spa, and as long as it's accessible from the outside edge, we haven't done anything where we couldn't figure out easily what keys needed to be pressed.

niteshadepromises - Just wanted to add my 2 cents' worth about the JetPak circulation. Our friends who own a Bullfrog just drained theirs a short time ago, and before we made our final decision, we did ask them about that issue. They said they don't move the JetPaks (which I think is often the case when you find where your favorite seat is anyway), but they didn't seem to see any problems behind theirs. Interestingly enough, however, they did drain theirs before calling us to come over, but that could just be a coincidence!

Hope this helps.

I was reading these post about the Bullfrog vs Arctic Spas and thought that I would throw in a little feed for thought. I have no experience with hot tubs. I am actually shopping around for one myself, but what I do know is some of the physics.

I am a firefighter and deal with pumping, calculating, pressures of water all the time. What the one person posted about the difference between the two lengths of garden hose is true. We call that friction loss. (You are not actually losing friction as it sounds, but you are losing pressure because of the friction). The longer the runs of hose or piping, the more surface area that the water is going to come into contact with. You wouldn't think it would matter, but that water rubbing on the inside of the pipe causes friction and reduces the pressure by the time it comes out the end. The longer the pipe the less pressure where you need it. With our fire hose it can be significant. With the pvc pipe I wouldn't think it would be a whole lot.

I think something that would effect it more would be the diameter of the piping. The smaller the diameter, the more friction loss again. Larger diameter pipes have less friction loss. I read where most of the spa pipes leaving the pump are 2". I had a guy tell me that his company used 2 1/2" pipes, but I don't know if that was true. I never saw them.

The other big kicker in piping is when you have to make turns. Water hitting a 90 degree turn causes a lot of friction loss. Therefore you try to make the turns sweeping as apposed to sharp. To get a visual think of a rainbow. The only problem in the spa is you are limited on space so they may have to have tighter turns. In our fire engines, we try to limit the turns in the piping to avoid this.

When I went in to the Jacuzzi dealer, the lady there asked me if I had ever had that itching feeling on my back after I got out of a hot tub. She said that is because of the pressure and size of the nozzle. So pressure is not always a good thing.

Hey, if there is anything else that you want to know about firefighting, let me know :O)

Tim

Mark

Do you still sell bullfrog??

Thank you johnnyspa

Sorry for the delay, I don't regularly check this forum. Yes, we still do sell Bullfrog and would not change if we could. After 4 years of selling, they are still the best thing out there.

They have a different story to tell. NO ONE is like them-they do things out of the box.

Thanks,
Mark

When making your buying descision did you consider that the Arctic story about heat lock is full of holes. First you have to have air to run pumps. This would mean that air has to be allowed into the cabinet. If physics is right heat will go to cold hence the reason you insulate your house. Second I agree all of the Arctic cabinet is removable but did you notice any weather stripping to seal all of the cabinet joints together? I'm guessing NO. Are those seams where the cabinet fits together not likely to let in cold air and let out the warm air? I agree with Mark the Bullfrog and Sundance are among the premier spa lines. I have been in the spa industry for over 13 years and have learned one very important thing. The only thing that matters in the end when purchasing a spa is if you can get service from the dealer. The only way a dealer can provide excellent service is when the manufacturer stands behind their product and Sundance and Bullfrog do that very well.